Episode 165

Podcasting for business | Neal Veglio from Podknows Podcasting (Part 2)

What really works for businesses wanting to use podcasts as a marketing tool?

If you worry about there already being too much competition in the podcast space, this could be your episode as it turns out there’s plenty of room near the top.

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Transcript
John Ball:

Welcome back to Podfluence, and I do say welcome back because this

John Ball:

is part two of my conversation with Neil Veglio and I do recommend that you

John Ball:

go back and listen to part one if you haven't already heard it, so that you

John Ball:

have the full context of everything that we talk about here, that's episode 164.

John Ball:

Previous to this one, very easy to go back and listen and in the first half of

John Ball:

our conversation we talked about things like whether you should be spraying out

John Ball:

tons of content and whether you should be listening to people like Gary V who

John Ball:

say that you need to be everything everywhere, all at once and who you can

John Ball:

actually trust in terms of podcast advice and all the gurus who are out there.

John Ball:

Now if you worry about there already being too much competition

John Ball:

in the podcasting space,

John Ball:

This could be your episode.

John Ball:

As it turns out, there's plenty of room near the top.

John Ball:

This is Podfluence, the show that helps you to grow your

John Ball:

influence and income with podcasts.

John Ball:

my name is John Ball.

John Ball:

My mission is to help you, the self-employed business coach, to

John Ball:

grow your influence and income

John Ball:

so you can have a continuously thriving coaching business.

John Ball:

That said, if you are a service-based solopreneur, I believe you will

John Ball:

find this content just as helpful.

John Ball:

We tend to think that there is huge competition in the podcasting space,

John Ball:

but the reality seems to be that there is a very little valuable

John Ball:

and quality content out there.

John Ball:

So part one of my chat with Neil pulls back the curtain on some of the not so

John Ball:

good aspects of the podcast world here.

John Ball:

In part two, we start to highlight some of the opportunities available

John Ball:

to people in podcasting for business.

John Ball:

So if you want to know whether you should start off as a guest or a host, what

John Ball:

makes a podcast good, and why there's only one real way for most people to

John Ball:

make money outta podcasts and whether it's worth having a newsletter or not.

John Ball:

Then stay tuned.

John Ball:

If you do have your advice in your hand right now, do me a favor and click the

John Ball:

plus button on Apple Podcast or Spotify or alternatively, click on whatever

John Ball:

is available to subscribe with on your listening platform so that you get weekly

John Ball:

updates of Podfluence as they drop.

John Ball:

Now pop in your EarPods and let's get into part two of my

John Ball:

conversation with Neil Veglio

John Ball:

one of the things I'll often say and focus on, particularly with the

John Ball:

show is the guesting side podcast, guesting as a way a means for growth.

John Ball:

And I base this on my own experience, so I is somewhat biased toward that

John Ball:

of like, if I could go back to when I first started getting involved in

John Ball:

podcasting, I would start as a guest rather than as a host, because I feel

John Ball:

for me, I did it the wrong way around..

John Ball:

I know that probably not everyone necessarily agrees with that, but I

John Ball:

just wonder what your thoughts are for anyone who is looking to get

John Ball:

into podcasting, using podcasting as a way to grow their audience and

John Ball:

become more known for what they do.

Neal Veglio:

You might not like my answer to this because

Neal Veglio:

, because it's one of those why

John Ball:

I I want, I want with hear different opinions.

John Ball:

I don't just want to hear what, what I think carries it back.

Neal Veglio:

Thing.

Neal Veglio:

Well, no, I mean, what I mean is I, I think, you know, I'd like to

Neal Veglio:

give you a really simple audience friendly answer, which will give

Neal Veglio:

them, a practical takeaway, an actionable, tip that they can, apply.

Neal Veglio:

Cuz that's what I like to do.

Neal Veglio:

But in this case, it really isn't as simple as do one way or another.

Neal Veglio:

, I know several people who don't want to do their own podcast,

Neal Veglio:

but love being guests on other people's podcasts, and that's fine.

Neal Veglio:

And I'm sure they're getting minimal results from that.

Neal Veglio:

And then on the other hand, you get people that don't wanna do guesting at all.

Neal Veglio:

They just wanna do their own podcast.

Neal Veglio:

And again, absolutely fine, valid.

Neal Veglio:

They'll get results from that.

Neal Veglio:

And then you get people that want to do both.

Neal Veglio:

They want to be a podcast host and they want to be a guest,

Neal Veglio:

and they want to have guests.

Neal Veglio:

What I'll say to you is, is this it?

Neal Veglio:

It's all irrelevant really, because it doesn't come down to whether you do

Neal Veglio:

guesting or you are a guest or whatever.

Neal Veglio:

It's all just stuff.

Neal Veglio:

It doesn't really matter because the listeners don't care whether you are

Neal Veglio:

guesting on other people's podcast anymore than you have guests on your own podcast.

Neal Veglio:

The listeners want content.

Neal Veglio:

That's it.

Neal Veglio:

And the sooner we get away from podcasting, being like television

Neal Veglio:

and radio, Or even like YouTube, where it's largely driven

Neal Veglio:

by entertainment parameters.

Neal Veglio:

The content that you are watching on those channels, the content that

Neal Veglio:

you're listening to on the radio, it's appointment to listen to radio.

Neal Veglio:

Yes.

Neal Veglio:

But it's also background and you have to be engaged enough with a presenter

Neal Veglio:

to make the appointment to listen to your favorite programs on, you know,

Neal Veglio:

like the Archers perfect example.

Neal Veglio:

In the uk, if you're outside of the uk, the Archers is a daily radio four

Neal Veglio:

Drama where, you know it's essentially about farmers or doing weird stuff

Neal Veglio:

in the countryside and people love it and they make an appointment,

Neal Veglio:

you know, as lunchtime listening.

Neal Veglio:

They'll sit there and they'll follow the drama and they've

Neal Veglio:

done for many years, yeah.

Neal Veglio:

People in their seventies and eighties still religiously listened to this

Neal Veglio:

program now because they grew up with it.

Neal Veglio:

That's very different from what podcasting is.

Neal Veglio:

Podcasting is literally appointment to listen to content.

Neal Veglio:

Content, not presenters.

Neal Veglio:

Okay.

Neal Veglio:

Let me make this clear, because this is where the waters can get muddied.

Neal Veglio:

I'm not suggesting that people are sitting there.

Neal Veglio:

Making an appointment to listen to your podcast.

Neal Veglio:

They are making an appointment to listen to the content that

Neal Veglio:

your podcast might cover, right?

Neal Veglio:

If you can get them over the line to become someone that makes an

Neal Veglio:

appointment to listen to your podcast, that covers the content

Neal Veglio:

that they want to hear, you've won.

Neal Veglio:

But that's the point you have to understand here is that

Neal Veglio:

it's not about the guests.

Neal Veglio:

It's not about you necessarily at this point.

Neal Veglio:

It's about your content and the content.

Neal Veglio:

We have to remember this.

Neal Veglio:

It's not about us, it's about the listener.

Neal Veglio:

We are having to super serve the listener, get them the content they

Neal Veglio:

want in these massive things they've got on the sides of their head.

Neal Veglio:

That they then feel they're getting ear candy from, to then feel that

Neal Veglio:

they've had a valuable experience.

Neal Veglio:

Because if they don't value the experience of listening to your

Neal Veglio:

content, they ain't listening.

Neal Veglio:

It's the same whether you've got a decent guest or a terrible guest.

Neal Veglio:

The guest is irrelevant.

Neal Veglio:

So my, the way I would put it in answer to your question about, what would I advise?

Neal Veglio:

They do it as a guest first or go straight in with their own.

Neal Veglio:

It doesn't really matter, as long as the content that you're putting out

Neal Veglio:

there is resonating with your ideal listener, you can go about it either way.

Neal Veglio:

I would say if you're going on as a guest only, you've got much

Neal Veglio:

less chance of connecting with that listener and taking them.

Neal Veglio:

It's like not having a mailing list.

Neal Veglio:

If you're not gonna have a mailing list and you're just relying on social

Neal Veglio:

media, how are you gonna continue the relationship and deepen it?

Neal Veglio:

And have a transaction.

Neal Veglio:

You need to do the work you need to build the community that your ideal

Neal Veglio:

listener can get involved with.

Neal Veglio:

Yeah.

John Ball:

No I like that.

John Ball:

I like that as an answer.

John Ball:

And it kind of ex also explains very well why the sort of random bullshit talk about

John Ball:

everything, real talk kind of podcast.

John Ball:

Don't go anywhere as well.

John Ball:

They don't work.

John Ball:

What, what are you go, what are you listening for?

John Ball:

I, I had in my many conversations as a sales rep , where I was selling

John Ball:

podcast training courses I'd often come across people who'd were coming from

John Ball:

broadcasting careers into podcasting.

John Ball:

And I feel that there are some very significant differences between

John Ball:

broadcasting and podcasting.

John Ball:

And you are someone who made that move a long time ago, and you've been

John Ball:

in podcasting a long time, so, You are probably a great person to answer

John Ball:

what some of those key distinctions are between the two formats.

Neal Veglio:

I'll tell you this.

Neal Veglio:

I was doing podcasting while I was still broadcasting.

Neal Veglio:

In the radio industry we weren't allowed to take contrary to what

Neal Veglio:

people think, unless you're a massively famous radio broadcaster like a

Neal Veglio:

Chris Moyles or a a Chris Evans.

Neal Veglio:

You know, we had to work for our money during the week as

Neal Veglio:

non-famous presenters, and a lot of us had like other jobs that

Neal Veglio:

we did around radio stations.

Neal Veglio:

Mine happened to be the podcasting side of things because I understood it.

Neal Veglio:

It was something I did as a hobby before I even started taking off to

Neal Veglio:

the fact it became mainstream that radio stations would want to do it.

Neal Veglio:

So, I had these battles with management on a regular basis where they were

Neal Veglio:

saying, we, we did really well at is the audience measurements system

Neal Veglio:

that is put together by Ofcom and, we're getting really great results.

Neal Veglio:

Why are we not getting the same numbers on our podcast?

Neal Veglio:

And they didn't seem to understand that.

Neal Veglio:

, you can't just get in your car and turn the radio on and the podcasts are there.

Neal Veglio:

It's a very different approach.

Neal Veglio:

And I think the major difference that broadcasters don't understand, and it took

Neal Veglio:

me a while to get it at the beginning, is that the content just needs to be

Neal Veglio:

presented in a very different way.

Neal Veglio:

In radio shows you'd have your big showbizzy intro.

Neal Veglio:

There was a lot of production there.

Neal Veglio:

And then it was like the big voiceover and it was like, Neil Veglio on Jack FM was

Neal Veglio:

one of the radio stations I worked for.

Neal Veglio:

And we had like, music beds that would roll on and then we'd be like, you know

Neal Veglio:

what we called Fader wanking, where you would talk a bit, bring the Fader back

Neal Veglio:

up, let music channel bring the fader down, talk again, put the fight, That

Neal Veglio:

just doesn't work in podcasting because you need to get across the point, within

Neal Veglio:

the first seven seconds, full stop.

Neal Veglio:

And if your podcast episode doesn't engage the listener within those first

Neal Veglio:

seven seconds, your toast, you're done.

Neal Veglio:

You skipped someone else's podcast is gonna get your time.

Neal Veglio:

And I think this is what broadcasters don't understand is

Neal Veglio:

that it's all very well to think, oh, I know how to communicate.

Neal Veglio:

I've communicated with audiences on the radio.

Neal Veglio:

That's way more impactful than a podcast that an amateur or a hobbyist can

Neal Veglio:

do, and this is what they don't get.

Neal Veglio:

Actually, it's harder podcasting.

Neal Veglio:

Getting engaged audiences through a podcast is way, way harder than sitting

Neal Veglio:

there on a radio station, you know, in a radio studio with a microphone that

Neal Veglio:

is connected through the airways to

Neal Veglio:

thousands of willing listeners.

Neal Veglio:

It's a very different experience, and I think that's why a lot of them

Neal Veglio:

don't really get the fundamentals, and that's why they get stressed out

Neal Veglio:

and frustrated, especially if they're working with clients, if they're, ex

Neal Veglio:

broadcasters that have now pivoted into becoming producers and podcast managers.

Neal Veglio:

I think they struggle with the idea that publishing your podcast episode

Neal Veglio:

to your hosting company is not enough.

Neal Veglio:

That's the start, and this is where the, a lot of their journeys, they start

Neal Veglio:

with recording the content with their client, editing it, getting rid of a

Neal Veglio:

few ums, but not too many because of course in radio we don't like removing

Neal Veglio:

ums because that sounds inhuman.

Neal Veglio:

They've obviously never learned to edit properly because it's live radio, but

Neal Veglio:

that's another argument for another day.

Neal Veglio:

It always makes me laugh when I hear that.

Neal Veglio:

Don't chop out too many ums cuz it sounds robotic.

Neal Veglio:

Please.

Neal Veglio:

And I think this is the fundamental difference, they don't understand the

Neal Veglio:

nuances of why you don't need to keep these radio rules about being human and

Neal Veglio:

being freeform and having personality.

Neal Veglio:

They're not relevant.

Neal Veglio:

People are not listening to your podcast episode to hear you

Neal Veglio:

do one liners about the Queen.

Neal Veglio:

God rest her soul.

John Ball:

If you can.

John Ball:

Okay.

John Ball:

Maybe a bit seen, maybe a bit soon for one liners, , . Some people are still,

John Ball:

some people are still reeling from that.

John Ball:

I've had a very.

John Ball:

Fortunate habit, I think of just kind of falling into

John Ball:

stuff in my life, just luckily.

John Ball:

No, I've been very lucky in, in many ways.

John Ball:

I, I had a whole career with British Airways, which I just kind of fell into

John Ball:

. Didn't even ask me how I ended up there.

John Ball:

I just did I was

Neal Veglio:

free travel.

Neal Veglio:

Obvious.

Neal Veglio:

Yeah.

Neal Veglio:

Yeah.

Neal Veglio:

Well,

John Ball:

I mean, that, that was pretty cool.

John Ball:

I had, I had a lot of fun when I was there.

John Ball:

But podcasting is one of those things as well.

John Ball:

It's kind of accidentally fell into it.

John Ball:

people often hear me tell the story of I started a podcast back in 2012

John Ball:

and did maybe six episodes of it.

John Ball:

It's still out there somewhere.

John Ball:

I haven't taken it down.

John Ball:

Maybe I should.

John Ball:

I was just about to have my first ever guest on when I like

John Ball:

thought, ah, this isn't worth it.

John Ball:

Impacted it.

John Ball:

You see that?

John Ball:

Lewis Howes

John Ball:

. Neal Veglio: Oh no,

John Ball:

. John Ball: So, you know, that wasn't

John Ball:

back to this again in 2019 and it was just a bit of fun project.

John Ball:

And I spent probably at least three years just fumbling around, not

John Ball:

really knowing what I was doing and just putting out the content.

John Ball:

Cause I was kind of enjoying it and felt like I had some value, but not

John Ball:

really seeing a lot come from that.

John Ball:

But now getting much more intentional about things now, narrowing the focus.

John Ball:

Aims of the show have really helped a lot, and getting to learn from people like

John Ball:

yourself makes a big difference as well.

John Ball:

In terms of, all right, I should be, here's what I may be doing.

John Ball:

Well, here's where I should maybe be looking for some growth and focus.

John Ball:

Where do you feel right now are the biggest opportunities in podcasting

John Ball:

for people who are business owners or really looking to maybe either

John Ball:

have their podcast be a business or grow their business through podcast?

Neal Veglio:

I would immediately try and talk them out of having the

Neal Veglio:

podcast become a business, a full stop.

Neal Veglio:

Unless there's some people that, that doesn't apply to,

Neal Veglio:

but they are the less than 1%.

Neal Veglio:

I mean, if you are Barack Obama, then of course you're gonna go to Audible and

Neal Veglio:

do an exclusive, I, you're Barack Obama.

Neal Veglio:

If you are Richard Branson, then of course you're gonna do a podcast as a business.

Neal Veglio:

I think there's a danger in these companies like Acast and audible and what,

Neal Veglio:

all these exclusive platforms that promise to take your content and make you famous.

Neal Veglio:

I think there's a lot of pressure on you as a podcaster if you are

Neal Veglio:

entering into that kind of a deal,

Neal Veglio:

there's a lot of pressure on you to deliver.

Neal Veglio:

And it's a cutthroat business as we've seen.

Neal Veglio:

I mean, Spotify have been getting rid of some pretty high profile shows recently,

Neal Veglio:

and these are not just anybody, you know, these are like famous people.

Neal Veglio:

And I think what that does is that indicates actually how imperative it

Neal Veglio:

is that you have a brand established before you start podcasting.

Neal Veglio:

If you are gonna make it into a business, it just isn't gonna work if you are not

Neal Veglio:

famous, high profile, huge influencer.

Neal Veglio:

Okay, let's just say that now.

Neal Veglio:

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Neal Veglio:

If you've got 20,000 followers on LinkedIn and everyone comments on your stuff

Neal Veglio:

and makes you feel like you're really popular, Your podcast is not gonna take

Neal Veglio:

off because you're not famous enough.

Neal Veglio:

What you can do is use it as a platform, as a marketing tool for what you do

Neal Veglio:

to sell your higher ticket items.

Neal Veglio:

But I would always, always discourage anybody from trying

Neal Veglio:

to make money from their podcast and treating it as the product.

Neal Veglio:

It should always be the marketing tool.

Neal Veglio:

You are the product.

Neal Veglio:

Your podcast isn't the product.

Neal Veglio:

Your podcast is the marketing platform for which you can sell yourself.

John Ball:

Yeah, I, I wonder actually, cause I, I know some of the podcast

John Ball:

podcasters who you work with and help and one, one of them, Wendy Harris was a guest

John Ball:

on the show and a great guest as well.

John Ball:

And I really like Wendy and So I see some of the content you help them get out in

John Ball:

the word now and no wonder just that this may be too big a question for you to be

John Ball:

able to reasonably answer, but as a best guess, how many, or maybe as a percentage,

John Ball:

how many people or podcasts out there do you feel probably are actually doing a

John Ball:

good job with the format and putting out valuable content as opposed to people who

John Ball:

are, just pumping out content for the sake of pumping out content or throwing out

John Ball:

unedited crap and all this kind of stuff.

John Ball:

Would you have any thoughts about what, based on what you see, how

John Ball:

many people are doing this well

Neal Veglio:

in terms of putting out good content?

Neal Veglio:

Fewer than 1%.

Neal Veglio:

Fewer than 1%.

Neal Veglio:

I would say the majority of podcasts being pumped out there

Neal Veglio:

are that they're being pumped out.

Neal Veglio:

It's people that have I, you know, no idea what they're doing to start with.

Neal Veglio:

Largely big brands have no clue what they're doing with podcasts.

Neal Veglio:

They just, majority of corporate big brands are literally saying to their

Neal Veglio:

marketing teams, we need a podcast.

Neal Veglio:

That's it.

Neal Veglio:

Make it.

Neal Veglio:

With literally no direction, no vision.

Neal Veglio:

If you want to be successful at podcasting, you need somebody who's

Neal Veglio:

helming it that has vision and goals for what they want it to achieve, and

Neal Veglio:

nine times out of 10, what you'll see is a C E O has turned around to his

Neal Veglio:

marketing team or her marketing team.

Neal Veglio:

Their marketing team.

Neal Veglio:

And said, we want a podcast, make it happen.

Neal Veglio:

And the marketing team had gone, okay right, so what do we do?

Neal Veglio:

And then it falls on them to then rush into a panic research

Neal Veglio:

what they think a podcast is.

Neal Veglio:

Invariably they're gonna look at other podcasts and they're gonna go,

Neal Veglio:

oh, that's those things where you get two people in a room and they have

Neal Veglio:

a conversation about their thing.

Neal Veglio:

That's right, we are gonna do that.

Neal Veglio:

I was consulting with I'm not gonna name them just because I don't think

Neal Veglio:

it's fair because they shouldn't be tainted as a brand based on their

Neal Veglio:

podcasting strategy, but mm-hmm.

Neal Veglio:

, I was working with a major high street bank, big deal bank, like

Neal Veglio:

you would a household name and

John Ball:

I'm gonna ask you for that after we record, but

John Ball:

, Neal Veglio: I might, Shiff we'll see.

John Ball:

Okay.

John Ball:

And they.

John Ball:

A high profile presenter, but the problem was they didn't

John Ball:

understand what a podcast was.

John Ball:

What they thought a podcast was was a way of them pontificating

John Ball:

about their financial products and helping general audiences on

John Ball:

LinkedIn, on Facebook or wherever.

John Ball:

Again, it was at largely video podcast cuz the audio wasn't being invested in

John Ball:

very much and that's what they thought a podcast was, whereas, Another bank

John Ball:

that I've seen in American Bank, this is that I wasn't working with, they

John Ball:

understood what their end goal was.

John Ball:

Their end goal was to engage young listeners to become more savvy with money.

John Ball:

Their thought process was if these people are listening to us when

John Ball:

they're younger, when they come of age, Who are they gonna go to when

John Ball:

they need to do their investments?

John Ball:

So they played the long-term game.

John Ball:

They're still going now, they played the long-term game of if we get

John Ball:

people when they're 16, 17, they're about to, embark on their careers

John Ball:

and their, their journeys in life.

John Ball:

But in maybe 3, 4, 5 years time, once they've graduated or once they've got into

John Ball:

their career, they might have disposable income that they'll want to invest.

John Ball:

So that's what we're gonna do.

John Ball:

We're gonna create the content that is useful to them, so they know that we've

John Ball:

had their back all through their formative years, so that when they're in a position

John Ball:

to spend their money, and it'll be big money, we're the bank they're going to.

John Ball:

Yeah.

John Ball:

And that's the trick to this.

John Ball:

It's not about selling you and what you do, it's about selling the trust.

John Ball:

It's about selling the relationship, building that relationship.

John Ball:

And if that means that you've gotta spill all your secrets on your podcast,

John Ball:

And 70% of your audience never buys from you because you've given them

John Ball:

everything that they need to know.

John Ball:

Thanks very much.

John Ball:

Goodbye.

John Ball:

So be it because it's the 30% that you wanna work with, because they're the ones

John Ball:

that are gonna be, well actually, yeah, you've given me everything I need to know.

John Ball:

So number one, you built the trust already that box is ticked, but

John Ball:

now you've told them your process.

John Ball:

They understand how you work.

John Ball:

They trust that you know what you're doing, but they

John Ball:

want you to do it for them.

John Ball:

And that's the key to this is understanding the difference between

John Ball:

the gatekeeping content that most podcasters put out there, where it's

John Ball:

like, yeah, okay, so you know, we're gonna talk about this thing, but I'm not

John Ball:

gonna give you any insight whatsoever.

John Ball:

I'm just gonna literally give you round the house's content.

John Ball:

And if you wanna know the answers, well you better book a call with us.

John Ball:

Yeah.

John Ball:

And that's not what my podcast guys are doing.

John Ball:

My podcast guys, they've given it all now and they're saying to you, if you need.

John Ball:

If you need further direction, if you need further handholding on this, guess what?

John Ball:

You can book a call with me and I'll be happy to help you.

John Ball:

They're not selling their giving, and that's the trick.

John Ball:

It's like anything in business, nobody buys from people.

John Ball:

That takes, takes, takes,

John Ball:

and, and it's about then in terms of this style of podcasting,

John Ball:

becoming that trusted advisor.

Neal Veglio:

100%.

Neal Veglio:

Becoming the trusted more than becoming the trusted advisor.

Neal Veglio:

Becoming the trusted advisor that you actually feel has your back long term,

Neal Veglio:

isn't trying to close a sale, isn't trying to fill their bank account for

Neal Veglio:

another month, but you are actually wanting to be accountable to them and

Neal Veglio:

take them through the journey long term.

John Ball:

That's an important distinction and one that's probably good for people

John Ball:

to hold in mind for business, not just for their podcasting as well, right?

John Ball:

I mean, it's good ethos to have about how you operate in

John Ball:

business in general, I think.

John Ball:

So I'm gonna give us some great ideas and you've already shared this, like

John Ball:

some of the ways you can unethically grow a podcast and some of the things

John Ball:

that probably, definitely shouldn't be doing or spending too much time focus.

John Ball:

What are the main things, the main areas that you recommend people focus on

John Ball:

for podcast growth or audience growth?

John Ball:

That do actually make a difference.

Neal Veglio:

Don't do anything until you got the content right.

Neal Veglio:

Simple as that.

Neal Veglio:

You need to have content.

Neal Veglio:

And when I say about content, right?

Neal Veglio:

Delve into what that means because content being right to one person might

Neal Veglio:

be absolute trash to somebody else.

Neal Veglio:

But there is a fundamental here that covers all.

Neal Veglio:

Okay.

Neal Veglio:

And I do laugh when I see this argued with on the Facebook podcasting

Neal Veglio:

groups, because they don't get it.

Neal Veglio:

Sound quality.

Neal Veglio:

You are in a sound medium, okay?

Neal Veglio:

And you are gonna have hundreds of thousands of people out there that

Neal Veglio:

are just literally rocking up to this.

Neal Veglio:

And they're getting their phone and they're recording

Neal Veglio:

their podcasts in their phone.

Neal Veglio:

Okay.

Neal Veglio:

Yeah.

Neal Veglio:

And so to them that's enough.

Neal Veglio:

And I'm afraid it's not.

Neal Veglio:

It just isn't, and this whole content is king, is something that has

Neal Veglio:

been, done is better than perfect.

Neal Veglio:

It's that participation trophy ethos, which has surfaced

Neal Veglio:

recently with younger generations.

Neal Veglio:

The showing up is half the battle.

Neal Veglio:

It's not okay.

Neal Veglio:

Showing up is the start you need to give to your listener.

Neal Veglio:

and give them an enjoyable experience.

Neal Veglio:

So it needs to be content, but it needs to be content that I enjoy listening to.

Neal Veglio:

Because if you are not willing to invest in a cheap U USB plugin

Neal Veglio:

microphone, this isn't one.

Neal Veglio:

This is an xlr by the way.

Neal Veglio:

I'm pointing at this, but this is actually not one I'm talking about.

Neal Veglio:

But you know, mine is . You are.

Neal Veglio:

Okay.

Neal Veglio:

So, but a USB microphone like the one you've got that will do with the job.

Neal Veglio:

Okay.

Neal Veglio:

It's good enough.

Neal Veglio:

What I don't want to hear is people talking through Oh, oh no.

Neal Veglio:

Welcome along to their podcast.

Neal Veglio:

I'm using my laptop microphone because that's all I can be bothered.

Neal Veglio:

No, nobody wants to hear that.

Neal Veglio:

Literally nobody wants to hear that.

Neal Veglio:

Even your Mum won't listen to that podcast.

Neal Veglio:

She'll tell you she is cuz she wants to encourage you darling, but she's

Neal Veglio:

not even listening to that podcast.

Neal Veglio:

It is all about making sure that when I listen to your podcast, I'm not

Neal Veglio:

immediately going, oh my God, could they not even be bothered to buy a microphone?

Neal Veglio:

I'm, I'm not talking about those things that come around your head and

Neal Veglio:

like the blooming Zoom microphones.

Neal Veglio:

I'm talking a proper fit for purpose.

Neal Veglio:

Microphone, 80 pounds.

Neal Veglio:

$80 on Amazon.

Neal Veglio:

You can get yourself not talking about the Blue Yeti.

Neal Veglio:

By the way, the podcast microphone I recommend is the Samson q2u.

Neal Veglio:

Oh, I hate Blue Yetis.

Neal Veglio:

They are worst.

Neal Veglio:

Save that

Neal Veglio:

. John Ball: I did, I did have a Blue Yeti.

Neal Veglio:

I'm very clever.

Neal Veglio:

I don't still have it now.

Neal Veglio:

. Uh, but yeah, I have a, this, this is a, a Samson Q9U

Neal Veglio:

uh, perfect.

Neal Veglio:

Anything from Samp?

Neal Veglio:

Not anything, but most of the things from Sam, they will do the job.

Neal Veglio:

And it, what you are doing is you're giving your listener

Neal Veglio:

a more pleasant experience.

Neal Veglio:

I'm not asking you to produce something that's been audio engineered, has got rid

Neal Veglio:

of all the background noise, you know, has nice eq, has a good has filtration on it.

Neal Veglio:

Dynamic processing is modulated it's mixed down and mastered to minus 14 laughs.

Neal Veglio:

I'm not asking you to do all that.

Neal Veglio:

I'd love it if you would do all that , but I'm not asking you to do that.

Neal Veglio:

What I'm asking you to do is to produce content that I can actually

Neal Veglio:

hear that I'm not straining and turning the volume in my car.

Neal Veglio:

Because I listened to a lot of podcasts in my car, that is a really good way of

Neal Veglio:

separating the wheat from the chaff, trust me, because if you've got a badly recorded

Neal Veglio:

podcast, you ain't hearing it in your car.

Neal Veglio:

All the road noise.

Neal Veglio:

This is what I'm talking about.

Neal Veglio:

It's about having a nice microphone, a decent enough, not expensive, a decent

Neal Veglio:

enough affordable microphone that will bring out the clarity of your voice, make

Neal Veglio:

it nice and pleasant to listen, to make the content sound good and digestible.

Neal Veglio:

Don't give me 90 minutes.

Neal Veglio:

Podcast.

Neal Veglio:

If it needs to be 10 minutes long, I don't need to hear what you did

Neal Veglio:

with your dog in the park on Sunday.

Neal Veglio:

That's something we can talk about on LinkedIn in a direct message

Neal Veglio:

conversation once we bridge that gap.

Neal Veglio:

Right now, all I want to hear is these things.

Neal Veglio:

Number one.

Neal Veglio:

What are you gonna help me with?

Neal Veglio:

How can you help me?

Neal Veglio:

Who are you, what can you do to help me?

Neal Veglio:

And what am I gonna get out of listening to your episode?

Neal Veglio:

Simple as that.

John Ball:

Yeah, no, I like that.

John Ball:

I, did you ever, did you watch the the White Lotus, the

Neal Veglio:

TV show, the White?

Neal Veglio:

I haven't, I've heard about it.

Neal Veglio:

Ah, it's so, it's

John Ball:

so good.

John Ball:

Anyway the second series of that, there's a bit with the Jennifer

John Ball:

Coolidge's character is in a conversation with this guy and he

John Ball:

says, oh tell me about yourself.

John Ball:

And then she, Oh well, I, I was born in this place and I grew up here.

John Ball:

like, oh, we're going all the way back, . And it's like, this seems like a lot

John Ball:

of people do that in their podcasting.

John Ball:

And I know I've been guilty of this and I have done it and this is what

John Ball:

I say, I fumbled around for a lot of time and edit did all the things

John Ball:

that you're not supposed to do.

John Ball:

So all the stuff that you might hear me saying, aye yeah, you

John Ball:

shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that.

John Ball:

done it , you know, I've done it and I know that's why you shouldn't do it.

John Ball:

So I'm not accusing you saying, expecting everyone should know this stuff.

John Ball:

But this is one of my biggest pet peeves now in podcasts

John Ball:

about people starting the shows.

John Ball:

Like, oh yeah, no.

John Ball:

He's like, what?

John Ball:

How was your weekend?

John Ball:

What have you been up to?

John Ball:

I don't care.

John Ball:

I don't care how your weekend . I mean, not you personally, Neil, but someone who

John Ball:

I'm listening to on a podcast who I've never met, I have no idea who they are.

John Ball:

Two people who work for the same company doing their sort of in-house podcast.

John Ball:

Oh, the worst.

John Ball:

Up to, oh, by that thing we went out to the other night, oh, please, please stop.

John Ball:

Just get straight to the information to the point because that

John Ball:

ultimately is what people want.

John Ball:

And we have know, it's a busy world.

John Ball:

We have a lot less time for fluff, for things that don't really

John Ball:

matter and ultimately want your podcast to be a bit more impactful.

John Ball:

I love what you're saying about sound quality.

John Ball:

I think it really matters in terms of podcasting.

John Ball:

One more sort of quick topic before we start to wind things

John Ball:

up, but what are your thoughts on something like podcast newsletters?

Neal Veglio:

So, for me, they're kind of one, it depends what you are doing.

Neal Veglio:

If you are a business, then a podcast newsletter.

Neal Veglio:

It will help.

Neal Veglio:

Is it vital?

Neal Veglio:

I don't know.

Neal Veglio:

I'm, it's not my area of super expertise, but what I can tell you by

Neal Veglio:

experience is that if you are trying to build a community, then a newsletter

Neal Veglio:

is by far the best way of doing it.

Neal Veglio:

there is nothing better.

Neal Veglio:

If you're a business podcast and you're treating your podcast as a.

Neal Veglio:

Which you should be.

Neal Veglio:

You should be a marketing tool that should feed into your wider business.

Neal Veglio:

I think people are not gonna wanna read about your business in your

Neal Veglio:

podcast, business newsletter.

Neal Veglio:

So it's a great way of you bringing the topics you are talking about

Neal Veglio:

in your podcast to your business newsletter that you're sending

Neal Veglio:

out to your wider clients.

Neal Veglio:

Reason being, it's gonna be a lot more touchy-feely because hopefully if you

Neal Veglio:

followed the tips I've mentioned earlier, you're not gonna be doing a hard sell.

Neal Veglio:

You're gonna be giving all insight.

Neal Veglio:

So in terms of having a podcast newsletter, I would say it's an

Neal Veglio:

absolute, yeah, it's a good start.

Neal Veglio:

I would feather it into your main newsletter if you're a business.

Neal Veglio:

If you are a podcast that's doing it for fun, then having a podcast

Neal Veglio:

newsletter is a great way of, building that community, growing your audience.

Neal Veglio:

You can have both.

Neal Veglio:

I know people that do.

Neal Veglio:

I certainly do it myself.

Neal Veglio:

I have both.

Neal Veglio:

I have my, my podcast newsletter and I have a wider brand newsletter, but I think

Neal Veglio:

I invest more in the podcast newsletter than I do in the brand newsletter.

Neal Veglio:

Ridiculously and like all podcast gu I'm contradicting

Neal Veglio:

myself cuz that's what we do.

Neal Veglio:

We are contradictory.

Neal Veglio:

We do the things that we we're really good at and the things

Neal Veglio:

that we are not so good at

Neal Veglio:

we sort of let slide a bit.

Neal Veglio:

So, one of the things I've actually challenged myself to do this year, and

Neal Veglio:

you might have even noticed this, I'm actually doing a LinkedIn newsletter

Neal Veglio:

now, which is around the podcast.

Neal Veglio:

I do, yes.

Neal Veglio:

Yes, and I have the podcast newsletter as well, and I've stopped doing the branded

Neal Veglio:

newsletter for a very simple reason.

Neal Veglio:

I think if someone wants to engage with me on a business level.

Neal Veglio:

Then they're probably not gonna do it through my business newsletter

Neal Veglio:

because that is literally, it's a marketing tool that's selling services.

Neal Veglio:

They're more likely to engage and following the advice that I've just

Neal Veglio:

mentioned, where they're gonna wanna get the insights, they're gonna wanna

Neal Veglio:

build that relationship with me.

Neal Veglio:

And I think the better way they'll build the relationship with me is through

Neal Veglio:

my podcast and my podcast newsletter.

Neal Veglio:

They're gonna get the tips.

Neal Veglio:

They're gonna realize and understand, oh, this guy kind

Neal Veglio:

of does know what he's talking.

Neal Veglio:

He's got, a flavor of the wider marketing space, but he certainly knows podcasting.

Neal Veglio:

So if I wanna do business with somebody that absolutely specialize in podcasting,

Neal Veglio:

then this is the guy that I probably need to talk to, and I think that's

Neal Veglio:

the key thing to understand here is you've got to know who your audience is.

Neal Veglio:

If your audience is not interested in corporate message, What's

Neal Veglio:

the point of doing a newsletter that literally just does that?

Neal Veglio:

This is the mistake we see a lot of companies doing.

Neal Veglio:

How many emails do you delete from your inbox every week where

Neal Veglio:

it's just people talking about the latest offers, nobody cares.

Neal Veglio:

Whereas the ones where it's, I don't know, maybe copywriters

Neal Veglio:

offering tips or journalists.

Neal Veglio:

Sorry.

Neal Veglio:

PR people offering you advice on how to really reach out to journalists

Neal Veglio:

or podcast experts who are giving you advice on how to improve your podcast.

Neal Veglio:

Those are the things you wanna read because you're

Neal Veglio:

getting something from them.

John Ball:

Yeah, no I get that.

John Ball:

And I started a LinkedIn newsletter at the beginning of last year and ha

John Ball:

have in that time managed to build up an astounding 400 subscribers.

John Ball:

, Neal Veglio: same thing.

John Ball:

Yeah.

John Ball:

But I'm really pleased about that.

John Ball:

And you I know that probably even a substantial portion to them.

John Ball:

Oh no, they just maybe clicked that they would subscribe to it because

John Ball:

at the time, nearly not every other person did have a LinkedIn newsletter.

John Ball:

Now it's like, you're probably getting invitations to LinkedIn newsletters every

John Ball:

other day if you're active on there.

John Ball:

So no, I feel that some of it has come from that.

John Ball:

And yeah I'm very happy for everyone who has subscribed cuz probably at least half

John Ball:

that amount subscribed to the newsletter.

John Ball:

Without being invited to do so.

John Ball:

From Luke, from my connections list.

John Ball:

And I think that to me is sort of like, okay, that's great.

John Ball:

You know, if I walk into any room that has like 50 or a hundred or 200 people

John Ball:

in it and I get a chance to speak to them or present something to them, I'm

John Ball:

gonna feel that that's valuable time.

John Ball:

And so that's one of the things I think about podcasting in general,

John Ball:

is I, I don't care if it, if somebody has a small audience or if I have a

John Ball:

small audience, if I'm speaking to the right people and providing value to

John Ball:

them, I will build and grow from that.

John Ball:

And that's what people are gonna appreciate.

John Ball:

It's what I try to do and I do what a lot of podcasters do.

John Ball:

I listen to my own shades before I publish them.

John Ball:

Brilliant . Because I think maybe you had agree with the story,

John Ball:

but I just think a lot of people clearly don't that you mentioned

John Ball:

it earlier about the audio quality.

John Ball:

It's not just that, but I could think of many times where you start listening to a

John Ball:

show and somebody introduces it and then the music comes on and it just blasts out.

John Ball:

, you are listening at one level and then the intro music blasts out, or

John Ball:

they're talking over the intro and you can't hear what they're saying

John Ball:

because the music is too loud behind all these kinds of things that they're

John Ball:

doing to try and be more professional.

John Ball:

Anyway, I'm ranting now, but , but those are things that I think,

John Ball:

yeah, please, please, please, people listen to your own podcast.

John Ball:

If you're creating content, you should check it before you put it

John Ball:

out and make sure that you would want to consume it for yourself.

John Ball:

Because I think that's the first.

John Ball:

And that's only the first

Neal Veglio:

one.

Neal Veglio:

Right?

Neal Veglio:

And in addition to that, what I would say is if you want to be really, really good,

Neal Veglio:

you wanna go next level, then try and work ahead to the point that you can listen to

Neal Veglio:

the episodes before they go out good five to 10 days after you've recorded them.

Neal Veglio:

Because what you'll do is you'll listen to them in a very different sense than

Neal Veglio:

when you recorded and edited them, okay?

Neal Veglio:

So, you're recording them and you're hearing them in your in, in real.

Neal Veglio:

Then the next time you hear them, when you are editing them, you're

Neal Veglio:

hearing them in a different, again, in a slightly different head space.

Neal Veglio:

As an editor, but you're still not fully stepping back from being creator.

Neal Veglio:

So if you do it 5, 6, 7, 8 days later, you're gonna be coming from

Neal Veglio:

creator mode to audience mode.

Neal Veglio:

And that's when the magic happens.

Neal Veglio:

When you start picking up on the things that, oh, I didn't

Neal Veglio:

realize I said that bit there.

Neal Veglio:

Oh, that probably doesn't sound good actually.

Neal Veglio:

Oh, oh, that's a bit loud there.

Neal Veglio:

Actually.

Neal Veglio:

I don't like that.

Neal Veglio:

I'm gonna drop that down.

Neal Veglio:

Oh, that sound effect doesn't need to be there.

Neal Veglio:

And you start.

Neal Veglio:

Approaching your own work in a more critical passion, which is exactly how

Neal Veglio:

your listeners will be listening to it.

Neal Veglio:

I

John Ball:

like that cuz I think I do that when I'm writing.

John Ball:

I don't necessarily do that with podcasts, so I'm gonna implement that for myself.

John Ball:

I'm gonna take that piece of advice and put into action

John Ball:

and hope other people will.

John Ball:

It is been so much fun, Neil, and it's one of those conversations I

John Ball:

think we could go on but I think we've covered a lot of valuable.

John Ball:

Stuff and probably some of the key stuff that I wanted to get to with you as well.

John Ball:

And given people, a very clear sense of what not to be doing, what's

John Ball:

kind of going on in podcasting where there's opportunities and

John Ball:

we've covered a lot of ground today.

John Ball:

What's coming up for you?

John Ball:

What are the things that you are focusing on for for the rest of

John Ball:

maybe this year, the upcoming year?

Neal Veglio:

Well, depending when this goes out I'm doing a talk at Pod Fest.

Neal Veglio:

I'm really delighted and excited about that.

Neal Veglio:

Pod Fest is, for me, one of the biggies.

Neal Veglio:

It's probably the podcast festival.

Neal Veglio:

I know podcast movement, every, that gives all the showbiz and all the headlines.

Neal Veglio:

But I think in terms of actual, Festivals that is the one that, lot

Neal Veglio:

of people take notice of, and there's a lot of knowledge shared there.

Neal Veglio:

It's not a lot of upsell going on.

Neal Veglio:

So I'm really delighted and happy to be a part of that.

Neal Veglio:

In terms of the rest of the year, God, I mean, hopefully more shows like this.

Neal Veglio:

I'm really trying to, well, I've been co I've become guilty of being

Neal Veglio:

swamped by the content myself and I'm actually spending so much time in terms

Neal Veglio:

the, the production process, I've not actually been able to spend as much

Neal Veglio:

time as I'd like on the creating side.

Neal Veglio:

So I will be investing more time in creating, whether

Neal Veglio:

that be, my own podcasts, the newsletters, as I've mentioned,

Neal Veglio:

I'm stepping the game up on that.

Neal Veglio:

I'm also looking to do a live soon.

Neal Veglio:

I don't wanna say too much about that at the moment, but I'm

Neal Veglio:

looking to try and make some of the podcasting news a bit more

Neal Veglio:

interesting and a bit more accessible.

Neal Veglio:

So if you follow me on LinkedIn, you'll see notifications of

Neal Veglio:

that coming, but that's probably gonna be in the next few weeks.

Neal Veglio:

I'm looking to do something a little bit different from that.

Neal Veglio:

I know, obviously I'm a massive fan of pod news and what

Neal Veglio:

James Cridland is doing there.

Neal Veglio:

Absolutely brilliant.

Neal Veglio:

I would never in a million years ever be able to compete with that, but I've got

Neal Veglio:

a slightly different take, so I'm hoping that will be interesting to some people.

Neal Veglio:

. John Ball: Okay.

Neal Veglio:

Well, I'm looking forward to that.

Neal Veglio:

And I'll suddenly look out for your pod fest.

Neal Veglio:

I'm gonna be speaking there myself this year on a fantastic, on a panel, on a

Neal Veglio:

panel this year, which I wasn't expecting.

Neal Veglio:

Yeah.

Neal Veglio:

But that's gonna be fun.

Neal Veglio:

So yeah, I will definitely look out for you there and for

Neal Veglio:

anyone who gets the chance, if.

Neal Veglio:

If I make, if I make an effort, I can get this out before Pod , before

Neal Veglio:

podcast, before Pod Fest comes out because we've been talking about it.

Neal Veglio:

Don't worry, you'll be on demand as well.

Neal Veglio:

So don't, you don't need to rest it.

Neal Veglio:

Bit that'll

John Ball:

that We'll include the link to, to some free tickets for people as well.

John Ball:

Cause Fantastic talking to talk about.

John Ball:

Great Neil, it's been such a joy and I know we're gonna probably have some

John Ball:

conversations again in the future.

John Ball:

This has been a very entertaining and informative chat as I knew it would be.

John Ball:

Thanks so much for coming and being a

John Ball:

guest on Podfluence.

Neal Veglio:

Thanks very much for having me on.

John Ball:

Well, thanks for tuning in and if you are getting this episode just

John Ball:

after it's been published, then podcast Global 2023 is just around the corner,

John Ball:

both myself and Neil will be there speaking and you can join us for free

John Ball:

as my guest by using my unique special discount code and the link that you'll

John Ball:

find at the bottom of the show notes.

John Ball:

Or if you prefer, connect with me on LinkedIn and I'll send

John Ball:

you the information personally.

John Ball:

Next time on the show.

John Ball:

It is just gonna be me by myself.

John Ball:

But do look out for the first bonus guest episodes that I'll be dropping very soon.

John Ball:

I'm busy working on a membership site where you're gonna have free access

John Ball:

to some exclusive content from me

John Ball:

as well as access to back issues of the Podfluence weekly newsletter.

John Ball:

If you're not already subscribed and you'd also like to get access to my Pre-Going

John Ball:

Live podcast checklist, you can find the link to register in the show notes.

John Ball:

That's it for me for this week.

John Ball:

Wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, have an amazing rest of your day.

About the Podcast

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Podfluence
The podcast that helps business coaches build influence and income with podcasts

About your host

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John Ball

From British Airways flight attendant to global online business coach & trainer with Harv Eker to podcaster and persuasion expert, it's been quite the journey for Johnny Ball. Now the author of the book Podfluence: how to build professional authority with podcasts, and host of the Podfluence podcast (formerly Speaking Influence) with over 150 episodes and over 10,000 downloads Johnny is now focused on helping business coaches and speakers to build a following and grow your lead flow and charisma at the same time with podcasts.